Ep. 65 - Whiskey's History at Tennessee and the World's #1 Most Visited Distillery

Transcript

Drew (00:00:09):
Welcome to Whiskey Lore, the interviews. I'm your host, drew Hennish, the Amazon best-selling author of Whiskey Lores Travel Guide to Experience in Kentucky Bourbon. And today I've got the honor of welcoming in Joe Baker of Old Smokey, a Man whose choice of occupation in 2009, probably caught some people off guard going from criminal attorney to moonshine. I've talked to a lot of people on the forefront of the Tennessee whiskey boom. And what's interesting is that old Smokey was really right there at the very beginning and one of the ones that made the most impactful of splashes with this new Tennessee distilling movement. And when you set up near America's most visited National Park, you're going to have good chance its success. So we're going to talk a lot about the rise of Old Smokey and also dive into a whiskey that they just released last year. It is called James Obe Reserve, Tennessee Straight Bourbon Whiskey. And it not only has some family ties in that name, but there's also some historical ties as well. So we will jump into that as well. So welcome to the show, Joe. Glad to have you here.

Joe (00:01:25):
Thank you so much. I'm a big fan and glad to finally be able to be a part of it, so thank you.

Drew (00:01:31):
Well, thank you Joe. And I've had a lot of the fun trying to dig into the very origins of Tennessee's distilling movement. Of course, we had Jack and George and then Phil Pritchard came in, and so for a while it was just three distilleries in the state and then all of a sudden laws changed in 2009 and boom, we have 40 plus distilleries in Tennessee now. And so you were actually right there at the beginning of this. What kind of drew you in to this idea of opening a distillery?

Joe (00:02:09):
Yeah, it's funny, I, I've had some good fortune in my life and one of the biggest pieces of good fortune was being raised in severe county Tennessee, as you said, that severe county's right there at the National Park entrance, and we are the beneficiaries of a lot of traffic and tourism as a result. I grew up as a child in East Tennessee. That was, I guess, part of a long history of families that had settled in the area. My first ancestors were in the area in the late 17 hundreds. And so I think I was born into that mountain heritage in a real lucky way. And although I picked up pieces of that distilling heritage throughout my life, I never expected to get into the business. It was not something that as a kid or through college and even my early professional life while I was practicing law, I never imagined that this would be my livelihood.

(00:03:13):
And lo and behold, <laugh> things started to change in 2009 that led us down this path. So yeah, I was kind of born into it. So when people ask me, how'd you get into it, I think that my dad, when I was young would take me with him to cook mash and I never ran. My expertise was holding a big hose, a fire hose and recirculating and mash in a large pot. And quite frankly, I believe that whatever they were making was being sold to cosmetic companies or food companies as an additive or an ingredient. I think that I remember being told that I think it was vanilla extract that that was needed. There was alcohol and vanilla extracted. We were making it in selling for that purpose. <laugh>, you never know and you always believe your parents, but I'm not sure my dad was leading me <laugh>.

(00:04:06):
Exactly. Great. But that was my entry into distilling. And so as an attorney in 2009, I enjoy being a lawyer. I still really look forward to working with individuals and fighting for individual freedoms as an attorney. But my heart was looking for a change. I wanted to do something different. I think tourism was in my blood just because you grow up around it, as I said, in Pigeon Forge in Gatlinburg. And so there was a bill that was kind of creeping through the state legislature, and I was really just watching it from afar. I had no involvement in it at the time. I was just a casual observer. And as I saw this I thought, well, it sure would be a heck of a souvenir to be able to sell in the mountains when people come to visit East Tennessee, to be able to put in a jar and give them a genuine and authentic piece of our mountain heritage as a souvenir. That's where things started for me was just seeing the opportunity percolate as our legislature was considering the change in the law.

Drew (00:05:15):
And it's interesting, when I talked to your uncle Johnny Baker, he took me on a tour through the Nashville facility and we were chatting about things and I feel like I'm just talking to somebody that I grew up around because I grew up in Asheville, North Carolina on the other side of the Smokey Mountains. And so it was a tourist area, and so you were used to having an influx of people in the area, but then you were also kind of used to that mountain culture all around you as well. And I'm sure with a family involved in it. I'm from Michigan originally, but we moved down here when I was really young. And so I would hear the stories about the moonshiners up in the hills and I mean, there were plenty of tall tales out there. I'm sure you got plenty of those tall tales, maybe even through your own family tree. Without

Joe (00:06:10):
A doubt. I've been told that anytime there's moonshine around, tall tales are also part of it. I think that without a doubt, you've got plenty.

Drew (00:06:20):
So we'll get to dive a little bit more into that too. But we're talking about they moved from three counties to 41 counties opening this up. So why do you feel that the state of Tennessee was ready to open it up like that? Because it seems like they did that and maybe there were distillers who were interested in getting into it, but it sounds like everything kind of passed by the time you said, okay, let's jump in.

Joe (00:06:45):
Yeah, I was watching it. I remember a lot of the debate, and I think the impetus for the bill that finally worked its way through the legislature and became law was the financial situation. I think across the country in oh 8, 0 9, there was certainly some negative pressure across the country. We had dealt with the housing crisis, and it was a difficult time for a lot of families, and the state of Tennessee was looking for different means of revenue, and this was an opportunity to create industry that had a long and storied history in Tennessee and to do it in a way that could create jobs, that could create tax revenue and create opportunity for a lot of people. And we were certainly beneficiaries of that. I applaud our House and Senate and the governor's office at the time for making it happen because now as you say, there's quite a few distilleries that have popped up around the state, the number of jobs that are created just in our business I think we are employing close to a thousand people. So you can see the impact of that legislation is significant, and there are a lot of families that have been positively impacted by it.

Drew (00:08:03):
Well, I think the other thing too is that Tennessee is such an agricultural state, so it just makes sense to me that would be a direction use for your own corn really. Yeah,

Joe (00:08:14):
No, for sure. I think that certainly supporting the agricultural community, the farmers, the people who are really working the land, I mean, it makes a lot of sense, doesn't it? I think the reality is the state of Tennessee exports a lot of great products, none of which are any more significant than music and whiskey. I think that we are really blessed to have both of those industries and our legislature and the governor at the time, they were quite wise, I think, to really open up opportunities for us to explore and to celebrate that history of whiskey making, spirits making in the state of Tennessee.

Drew (00:08:53):
So it seems that if you're going to start a business like this, you probably have an idea that you're either wanting it to be a tourist destination thing or you want it to be the moonshine. What was the original kind of idea? Was it more the tourist side of things?

Joe (00:09:11):
I think that my wife and I, we were both attorneys and we had, in 2009 we had just had our third child and we were at a point where we were certainly fortunate and blessed and in our lives and doing just fine working as lawyers, but I was working really hard. I was working a lot of hours and I wanted to do something different. So I think that the push to work for a better financial future for my family was what was prompting me to do this. So I think first and foremost, I just wanted to open a business that didn't lose money. So

(00:09:46):
That was the starting point. And I think equally not losing money, trying to actually create a business that led to value, but also equally for me, I think creating a product that was authentic, something that was genuine, that my friends and family at home wouldn't look at me and laugh because it wasn't real. I think that say I, there's so many times, especially early on, I would hear, well, that's not real moonshine. And I think that there is fair criticism that it is different because we pay taxes on it, but, but it's not fair to criticize it and say it's not real because it doesn't taste the same or that it is in any way different as a product because what we make is exactly the same and maybe a little more refined and more consistent of a product and safer, but the reality is what we make it tastes like and is moonshine.

(00:10:43):
And it's been made in the hills of east Tennessee for a long time. So I think creating a product that was authentic was high on my list. And at that time, I was new to the industry. I had no legitimate industry experience and beverage. And so there were conversations at home about the product and what it was going to look like, and I had no idea what label regulations existed. I thought, let's just put it in a jar and whatever the very minimum label is, let's do that. So I think that a lot of times it's fun to be complimented on the package design and the label design that we finally came up with. But the reality was there wasn't a lot of choice to it. It was obvious, let's just use a jar and put as little on the product as possible. But I think that simplicity and the authenticity that came with it really served us well. Yeah,

Drew (00:11:34):
I heard you had a little issue with the mason jars at first that they were not quite in a large enough supply for what you needed.

Joe (00:11:43):
Yeah, yeah. We had to say that we had issues with the jar as an understatement. I think that I don't know that, and I've gone through a lot of tough things in life. There's challenges every day. We're facing a lot of challenges, and this business has grown so significantly and we're so incredibly fortunate to have been a part of it. But the reality is it was hard. And in those early days, it was like we were scratching and clawing everywhere we could to get jars that would fit. And again, out of ignorance, early, very early, I didn't understand why we couldn't just go to Walmart and pick up some more ball jars and jar. Even as an attorney, I think growing to understand the regulations and just how heavily regulated and specific the industry is it, and for good reason we learned a lot, but getting glass in those early days we unsophisticated to say the least. We figured

Drew (00:12:41):
<laugh>. So give us a picture of how the distilling started. Did you hire in a distiller to come in and kind of help choose what kind of equipment you needed and or did you have family members that were like, yes, we've been doing this illegally for <laugh>, so we can tell you from our history what you could do? Yeah,

Joe (00:13:05):
It was a combination of both. We had family that and friends that made stills that made plenty of liquor and had perspective to offer. I still have the conference table in my law office in Sevierville. I remember Uncle Johnny, who you mentioned earlier, and my partners and a couple other family members sitting around this conference table in Sevierville. And I think we had probably 12 to maybe 12 to 15 different moonshine that we were sampling and just talking about trying to compare and contrast recipes and all the different nuances of each one. And by the time we left that night, the varnish was worn off the conference table and in a lot of places. And so now I look at that table and I'm fond of the memory, but I was a little upset by it that night. But the evolution, you asked about the distilling, it came from initially that we started talking just locally amongst friends and family and trying to figure out what we wanted it to be.

(00:14:08):
But ultimately, because this was a again, it was a new thing, we were getting the first license in the state of Tennessee under this new law. We were working with abc. Not only were we dealing with a city that had never licensed a distillery location and a state that was working under a new law, but we then also had to comply with all the federal licensing requirements. So in order to do that, we ended up hiring Dave ll, who a lot of people in the industry are familiar with. He helped a lot of people get to start. He was instrumental without a doubt in giving us good direction. And then Rob Sherman at Vindo Copper was also somebody who was really a friend early on. And so we set up a small steel. And the reality there during that time was that we were underfunded.

(00:15:01):
We didn't have a lot of money to start a distillery, and the law required that we secure the property and we secure all this equipment and we go through the investment stages all before we could even apply for the license. And it was stressful to say the least. There were difficulties in getting financing. I ended up using my law office building. I was able to secure a pretty modest loan as a means by which we were able to fund this, but it was difficult and the stress levels were high. And so Davell helped with the initial phases of the distilling and setting up the equipment. We got that set up and we applied for our licenses. And this all happened in a matter of maybe eight months. So we were quick. As soon as the law came into effect, we were working on this and we got licensed in I think it was, was either May or June of 2010. And it was an adventure for sure, but that's kind of how the earliest days involved.

Drew (00:16:09):
It's such an interesting industry because you have to first get set up if you're a distiller, you have to first know how to distill before you can go get your license. So it's kind of like you're a risk to that. I guess what happens if you don't end up getting the license, but you're hopefully feeling self-assured that you can get through all of that red tape that that is just being created at that very moment. So

Joe (00:16:38):
For sure. And I think that there are, now, looking back, I think there are probably opportunities to get a license without distilling the products and creating a brand without distilling products. But was for us, we had two fermenters and a nice little pot still to start. And that is exactly, that's how we did it. And it was fun because it, we started in a building about 2000 square feet, maybe 20, 2500 square feet that was off the parkway in Gatlinburg, and I believe it was in foreclosure. And otherwise we couldn't have afforded the rent. So we got a really good deal on the space because it was a distressed property and we made the best of it. And it's funny now that space of course has grown and it is the most visited distillery in the world. So it's crazy how that all came about. But we love our visitors.

Drew (00:17:36):
So when you did get started on this and you got Dave Erroll there and you're kind of figuring out from the recipes that you've got your hands on, were you aware of anybody else outside the state of Tennessee that was selling legal moonshine?

Joe (00:17:52):
I definitely remember the brand Georgia Moon and then also Midnight Moon and Midnight Moon was I was a brand that I really was always a NASCAR fan growing up. So Junior Johnson and his history was something that I was very aware of and I didn't understand. I think at that time they were selling their products in a bottle, they weren't selling in a jar. And so I think that they were certainly celebrating the moonshine history and heritage, but I think they were also bringing a product to market that was maybe a little bit more mainstream because it was in a bottle and the Georgia Moon, I believe, was in a jar. So yeah, I was aware of those. And there may have been others, but those were two that I remember. They were making products, I don't remember. The flavors were something that were I think, innovative that we brought to the market that were important. The start, we just did the clear products, but quickly we rolled out Apple Pie and Blackberry and now we've got so many flavors that it's up. But Apple pie was what I was most familiar with as a fan of Moonshine outside of, before Smoky, it was, the apple pie has always been a fan favorite. We were especially birthdays and Christmas parties, that kind of stuff. I was always excited to have apple pie around.

Drew (00:19:17):
Yeah, when I first started talking to Johnny Baker, I said, I do a whiskey podcast and whiskey people, I don't wanna say they're got their noses in the air or anything, but there is this feeling when you see a lot of product that is flavored that maybe the spirit behind it isn't the highest of quality. And you'll hear that on and off. But then you start mentioning Dave Pickerel is in here helping you get this all set, which, I mean, I can't tell you how many distilleries I've been to that he's had an influence on that are making amazing spirits. And the fun part was that when I was in Nashville, Johnny let me taste this experimental whiskey, I guess it was a first batch of something that you guys were distilling there that was a red wheat and rye whiskey that was in a 15 gallon barrel that had aged for seven months. And that was amazing. I was like, why isn't somebody making something like this? Yeah,

Joe (00:20:23):
We're doing some fun things with whiskey and I'm, I am over the moon excited about what we're doing there, but I get your point. I think that it is, it's easy for people to be real selective, let's say, in what they drink and how they approach that. I think that I'm a wine drinker, I like big cabs and you develop sort of a profile and a preference for things. And so I think that I'm not a big drinker of flavored things. Even our products, I am a fan of the apple pie. It it's, but if I'm drinking spirits, I'm drinking an unflavored product, I so I get it. It doesn't mean it's right or wrong. Right? I think that that's the reality is there are a lot of people that are enjoying flavored products and my preferences are no better than his or hers. So I get it.

(00:21:16):
I think it is interesting. And I think for a brand, this level of seriousness, are you serious? Is it a serious whiskey? If it's flavored? To me, I think it's opening up opportunities for people to explore and be introduced to different types of spirits. So I think there's a lot of room for the flavors, but for us, it is important that our base be very high quality. And whether you're talking about a neutral spirit that we distill and we add to flavor or a corn based product that that's a corn whiskey. Or specifically if you look at our blue flame or the 1 53, there are a lot of products that we put out there that we take a whole lot of pride in the whiskey, the spirit that we're making and to each his or her own. But we love all people and excited to serve 'em

Drew (00:22:07):
All. Yeah. Well, we live in an age where people are now starting to move from just drinking whiskey meat to appreciating cocktails again. And so if we're adding in the ingredients into a cocktail, it only makes sense that if you're adding in flavor into, it's just a easy cocktail for you. You don't have to go through all the trouble of sourcing things.

Joe (00:22:31):
No, I think it is. And it's fun. I think tasting different things, that's part of I think part of the funnest spirits. And although I don't drink a lot of flavored spirits, we made the salty caramel that we sell that was made first in my mother-in-law's kitchen, and we were just messing around with ingredients in the kitchen one night and my brother-in-law and I were making caramel, and we would mix in some bourbon and just taste it. And it's terrific. It's a great product. It's not something that I necessarily drink a lot of, but I really enjoy the flavor and it's fun. I think I was inspired by an ice cream. I tasted salty caramel ice cream at some point, what got me thinking about it. But there's a lot of room for cocktails and flavored products and yeah, I think you're right. You're making it easy for the consumer if you're working on that and exploring flavors. And there's a lot of good ideas that are coming out of that innovation.

Drew (00:23:32):
Well, and that's one of the things that I'm starting to get into at home is actually blending different whiskeys together and experimenting. It would be very interesting to experiment with a flavored moonshine and see how you're basically mixing a cocktail, but you're doing it with two spirits rather than two heavier spirits, rather than doing it with and it wasn't long ago, actually, as soon as I saw salty caramel, I went, I just had a scotch that has a salted caramel kind of a flavor to it. And I'm like, wow, that's really good in a spirit. And it's not something that I normally would put together, especially in a scotch, cuz we don't think of caramel notes in scotch as much as we do in bourbons, but yeah. Yeah, seems like there could be some compliments there in trying to blend those together.

Joe (00:24:30):
Yeah, no, for sure. I think that when we are on outdoor trips, guys trips that we've done skiing or whatever it, it's funny how much I enjoy the flavors of chocolate chip cookies and a bourbon neat. So I think the complimentary notes of the cookie and the bourbon are, to me, are interesting. And I think there are ways to do that in products too. It's, and it's not going to be necessarily the most sophisticated spirit that you've ever come across, and you're not going to write about it for days on blogs about bourbon. But it's these things they, they're important. And I think that it's a fun part of the industry that we sure enjoy celebrating.

Drew (00:25:17):
So the one that I had, I was at the barn not too long ago that was the only location of yours I hadn't been to in Pigeon Forge. And I went in and I said, okay, I'll do a tasting. And they gave me some blueberry pancake. And I had to tell you that when I tasted that blueberry pancake, I went, this is amazing. Because if you had taken the blueberry pancake with maple syrup on it and stuck it in your mouth and then stuck that in your mouth, it was almost identical to me. It was amazing how close you got that flavor. Is there this challenge that you guys have in trying to really nail those flavors down to an exact science?

Joe (00:26:08):
Yeah, we've got a good team and the process is it, it's really blown away by the flavors that are created out of there. And I, there's a guy that named Matt Lane that I played football with in high school and in Gatlinburg, and he's in charge of that innovation on the flavor side. And so we're fortunate to have him leading the charge there. But it's funny, when we first started with flavors, our process was a little less sophisticated. We'd start in the kitchen just mixing up some apple, different apple pie recipes. And then we taste it around, share it around with friends and family and see what everybody thought. Now we do have a very formal tasting process where the team's coming in, a large team's coming in and doing tasting and blind tasting and just over and over again really, we get through several rounds of tasting before we actually put a product out for trial. So yeah, it's a lot of thought that goes into it. I gotta tell you have, before this, I'd never heard of blueberry pancake moonshine, but there there's some of these products that they make me question as much as I really do care about the authenticity of the brand, there are places like this where fun overrules and so they're making us say the fun products that I think some of the old heads from my hometown might be rolling over in their graves.

(00:27:36):
These guys are really screwing this up. But it is fun. They're having a good time with it. Yeah. When we talk about the spirits industry, before I ever thought about Old Smokey, I did have an incredible and do have an incredible eggnog recipe that I would share around the courthouse before Christmas. And so that recipe evolved into what our Shine nog, which was one of the first creams that we put out. So the creams have a little bit of a story as it goes back to that time around Christmas and eggnog. But these new flavors, they're popular <laugh>, the Butter Pecan, I think the Butter Pecan is right now one of the best sellers we have. So it's always fun to see what's next.

Drew (00:28:21):
Very nice. So one of your neighbors, Darryl Miller over at Boot Lakers he was telling me some moonshiners stories. He said, I get moonshiners that come out of the hills and they want me to test their moonshine. And he said, one guy came in and he said, I have some 220 proof moonshine. And he's going, wow, <laugh> okay, that, that's like somebody giving you 110%. I don't know if that's exactly quite <laugh> feasible. So did you have a lot of that when you guys first started out that moonshiners were coming in going, Hey, my stuff's a lot stouter than yours and test this out.

Joe (00:29:01):
We hear that. So actually, I remember one story, and I'm not going to get this exactly right, but there was somebody that had brought in some apple pie moonshine and they were challenging us a little bit on apple pie. And their apple pie was, I can't remember what they said, 120 proof or some. It was a really high proof product in their mind, and we proofed it just to see where it was. And it was maybe in the thirties maybe. I mean, it was really, really,

(00:29:33):
But I think that people, there are a lot of stories out there. And the reality is, and was then that when there was a lot of moonshine that was pushing through the system illegally, it made sense to cut it as much as you could because the alcohol was that that's what was most expensive to make. And so if you could mix some other flavors, or even if it was just watered down, if it was a water, if it's just a clear product, I don't think there was any incentive to make it as high proof as you could. Yeah, I think that the incentive was probably to try to proof it down more. But it's fun. I love those stories and I grew up around them. And now to be able to share 'em in a way that people finally in where we make most of our product in severe county and in co county I think there's a real respect that has evolved over the last 12 years because we have so many team members that are from the area and they're serving the legacy of their uncles and granddads. And I think that because we do distill all of our spirits, I think that people have recognized that we are, we're doing it the right way. We're honoring a rich tradition in history. And so it's fun to hear those stories though and to be challenged every now and then. Yeah, I guess more than anything else I've probably heard, oh, I don't know a thousand times that somebody will come up to me and say, oh, I've got a jar of popcorn's last batch. And if it's true, popcorn's last batch was so big that,

Drew (00:31:12):
Yeah, I think

Joe (00:31:13):
That Brown foreman and everybody else would be challenged on volume. But it is fun to hear it's fun to hear about people's experience with moonshine and popcorn. Sutton is certainly a rich and real genuine piece of our local history and somebody who has been celebrated, but it's a story like that. I get a kick out of that. You mentioned Western North Carolina. He spent a lot of time over there and I'm sure that

Drew (00:31:38):
Oh, I heard about him a lot when I was there. Absolutely. I seem to know a lot of people who knew him and I'm like for a guy who's hiding out in the woods, he's got a lot of people that know him well.

Joe (00:31:48):
I think I, he enjoyed visiting and he was not shot at talk. So I think those are probably real. I think a lot of people did get to spend some time around him.

Drew (00:31:58):
There's a whole other culture too that I really didn't hear much about, but I've started to hear more about, I live in Greenville, South Carolina, so we are, we're down in what was called the Dark Corner. Sure. Moon Moonshine Mafia, I'm all of these kind of things that are a whole part of history that, I dunno if it's hidden, I just haven't quite dug into it yet. Yeah,

Joe (00:32:20):
It's familiar with that. I've heard of Dark Corner and there was I know a distillery opened under that name in Greenville

(00:32:29):
And it, it's but I think that's the other part of Moonshine that I find so interesting is that no matter where you go in the country or in either even other parts of the world, there are these, let's call 'em indigenous spirits that are made, they develop in these towns or in these communities all over the world that they have stories. And at its core, I think that no matter what they call it, it's similar to Muan for us. And while Moonshot may be in Gatlinburg and you may have this dark corner of the upstate of South Carolina or over in Maggie Valley, all these places all over the country have these stories. So it's fun to be a part of that.

Drew (00:33:16):
So in doing my research on Tennessee whiskey history, a lot of the distillers that were the first distillers in Tennessee didn't really come out of the Scott's Irish background, which was a surprise to me when we started talking about Evan Shelby and J Jack Daniel and some of those names. But in the mountains it was a different culture and it was the families coming down from the ones that were leaving the Ulster area of Ireland and coming over this way and they kind of just made their way down through the mountains. So with your own family, how far back do you know about your family and what did, you said 17 hundreds when they came through here how far can you trace 'em back

Joe (00:34:08):
A little bit farther back? I know that I guess it's my fifth great grandfather, and I think I've got this right that the product that James Wobe is named after, I think he's buried at Bat Cave actually over in Western North Carolina, but I think they trickled in through Virginia and North Carolina and settled in Tennessee. But my mom is the youngest of 15 kids and I've got an aunt and uncle on that side that have traced things back to England, Ireland, and Scotland, and they can point to a really clear line. And it's fun to see that, I don't know the answer to it right off the top of my head, but I know that those are our folks. I'm excited someday to be able to physically to go there and trace that and kind of see where we came from. But it's one of the greatest parts of our country is that we've got so many people from so many different parts of the world that come here. And it makes us interesting that we've got this diverse history and past. So our, ours is specific to that area of the world, but certainly that's where we came from.

Drew (00:35:26):
So in doing my research, what I didn't realize about the mountains of Tennessee was that was actually set aside by the British government before it became the United States. It was set aside as land for the Natives. So it had, the Cherokee basically owned all of the Appalachian mountains in what was then North Carolina over. And so it was not allowed to be settled until around the 17 I think it was 1770 when it finally opened up and there was a treaty and they were able to come into the area. And it wasn't long after that the over mountain men, which was the name for the settlers that had been the Scott's Irish and the English and the rest who had settled in your area of east Tennessee, went down and took part in the battle at King's Mountain and a lot of the other skirmishes that were going on and battles during the Revolutionary War. So if James Owenby is your great five times grandfather, he would've had to have been one of the first settlers in that area someone of a European culture.

Joe (00:36:53):
Yeah, no, it, it's, and I think that to be able to look at that and honor that in the bourbon that we put out, I have my mom her maiden name was o b, and it's fun to be able to look back, reflect and honor somebody that, yeah, I think that he was I, I'm sure just a small part of that effort, but just to be a part of that effort is I think really a significant thing. I was fortunate to serve our country in the military and so for me to be able to honor that in some way it, I'm really proud to have done that. And I have not been to the site where he is buried in Bat Cave but excited to make that trip. I've seen a lot of photographs and it's neat. I think there's a real western North Carolina and East Tennessee and certainly the Smokey Mountain area, I think no matter which side of the mountain on, if you're from one side or the other, you've probably got family on one side of

Drew (00:38:01):
The other <laugh>.

Joe (00:38:02):
Cause the people kind of moved back and forth. And there are a lot of ones over in Western North Carolina that are distant cousins for our family that it really is a good thing to be able to celebrate as a history of someone. We have roots too that served and was part of creating what we now know as a free country. Yeah.

Drew (00:38:27):
One of the locations that I remember, and I think you guys were a part of was the Davy Crockett, Tennessee Whiskey.

Joe (00:38:33):
Yes. Yeah. My wife was I think, I'm not certain about this, but I think that would've been the first distillery owned by a woman in Tennessee. And she was proud of that. And she'd been very involved in the business. I was fortunate to marry a lady much smarter than me, and she's kept us going. But that was her brand I think that was started in maybe 20, 20 11, 20 12, and ultimately has become part of the old smoky

Drew (00:39:06):
Business. Was that kind of the first attempt at whiskey or were you doing whiskey before then?

Joe (00:39:12):
We were not selling anything aged before then. I don't believe we started with a charred moonshine is something that was a favorite of mine, and that was our first foray into anything that was aged, albeit pretty young stuff. But the Davy Crockett lines, that was the first effort within our family as far as a product that was offered for sale.

Drew (00:39:38):
Yeah. Were you a fan of the Moonshiners show?

Joe (00:39:42):
I gotta admit, I <laugh> never watched a full episode of it. I was a fan of the first year, year or two maybe we did advertise on the show and it was something that I think it helped us those advertisements, so the Discovery Channel, the ads we paid for, I think somehow they probably benefited us along the way. I'm a fan of anything that celebrates the culture and the, I guess the mystique around moonshine. I'm not sure that it, it's not sure it's the exact representation that I would want to see, but for the folks in my hometown and in that part of the country, but it's a place for it and I'm a fan, it, it's just not it is entertainment for

Drew (00:40:34):
Sure. I have to say that somebody who has been an attorney and is in the moonshine business and watching a show like that mean my dad used to, he was a policeman and he used to watch all the COP series and he would just sit there going, they couldn't do that, they couldn't do that. And then you have these cameramen following these moonshiners around and they're supposed to be hiding out and you're thinking, wait a second. I'm sure there's a cameraman with a cell phone in his pocket that probably has a GPS on it.

Joe (00:41:09):
Sure. It's entertainment. I have met a lot of the people that are involved. There are some great personalities that are involved in that. And there are some people in there that I know have been involved in Macon spirits and so I'm glad they've done as well with it as they have.

Drew (00:41:26):
Yeah. Well, and it brings the name moonshine out so that when somebody's coming to the mountains, it's on their mind. So it couldn't have hurt sales at all.

Joe (00:41:35):
Yeah, it, it's like I say, it's entertainment. I think it's been, I was a JAG officer in the Air Force and I served in the Air National Garden, Tennessee, and there was a show called Jag that was, I think it was maybe in the late eighties, early nineties. And for a while, every time that somebody would ask me, what do you do in the Air Force? And I would tell 'em, in their mind it was the television show,

Drew (00:42:00):
Which

Joe (00:42:02):
Was very different than riding wheels and power of attorneys. It was pretty boring, I guess in some ways what I did. But I think the show sensationalized it just a little bit. And I think it's similar. It's tv, right? Yeah, it's entertainment.

Drew (00:42:15):
Although I will say that growing up, my first job was in radio and W K R P in Cincinnati was not very far off from the way it actually is in radio. I

Joe (00:42:28):
Can see that. Sure.

Drew (00:42:30):
I can see, yeah, we're not talking big corporate radio, we're talking those little hometown stations that are living off a shoestring budget and just trying to make it, and the DJs come in when they want to come in and pick their own music out and do all that sort of stuff. So

Joe (00:42:46):
I haven't seen that show, I haven't even thought about that show in years. I have to show, I love going back and pulling out old shows and showing my kids what I used to watch this. It's fun to get their perspective on things like that.

Drew (00:43:03):
Yeah. How big is old smoking now? You have four locations, and so how many tourists are you seeing per year at these four locations?

Joe (00:43:14):
I think that I don't have an exact number. I know it was over 5 million last year. It's a mind boggling number big, and it really is just a great honor to be able to greet that many people and to introduce some, I think you've been to our locations and it's definitely a fun homespun sort of experience, but it's genuine. I think that our effort was from the beginning was even though we are a distillery and we're making moonshot in whiskey, I, when I opened Old Smokey in 2010, I had three young children. I had a six four and a two year old, and I wanted them to be close by. And so from day one it was always, let's find a way to do this as family friendly as we can. And it's a tough thing to balance and the spirits industry, but we, our team does an incredible job of welcoming people and offering an experience that that's fun and people keep coming back. So like I said, it's a big honor for us to be able to see all those new friends and faces and have the repeats coming back. We don't take that lightly. We really work hard to bring people in the mix and love having them as part of the old Smokey family.

Drew (00:44:41):
It's gotta be a bit of a shock if you put 2009 and the great recession and what you were going through then versus now with the amount of people you employ and just the success of the brand overall.

Joe (00:44:56):
Yeah, no, it is. I think that over the last 12 years we have, we've had peaks and valleys and I remember that very first summer, I remember in early July of 2010, I had maxed out my credit card for our opening week and I was all in. And to say that I was stressed out and worried and we had a handful of employees at that point and obligations left and financially for property and equipment and loans and it was tough. But when we opened, things went well from day one. We were really fortunate to see a lot of visitors from day one. And then fast forward maybe a few months later, two months later, we were already running outta stuff. And then our next problem we started getting calls from distributors that wanted to have the product in Florida or South Carolina or Georgia. So we started that.

(00:45:58):
And again, we didn't know, we knew zero about the industry and so everything we did, we were learning and doing it on the fly and we're making mistakes left, but trying to learn from 'em and really get better. And so, you know, fast forward to, I remember the next part where the next part of the story where I really lost sleep, had Walmart was going to take our products into a, I think stores in maybe 20 states. It was a big number and we hired people left and, and we were just trying to assemble a team and there was no fancy equipment that put these jars of moonshine together. It was all this, it was a very laborious process. So we really worked hard. We got there and finally we had all these people, 30 or 40 people that were coming in and making these products.

(00:47:03):
And then we realized we couldn't keep up with the orders. And <laugh>, big box stores are notorious for losing patience and cutting out products when you can't keep up. And I think we were at best five or six weeks behind him. It was really, it was looking bad. And I'm sitting there just praying that we can somehow do better because I was afraid at that point that we were going to lose the orders. And then we had 30 or 40 employees that we would have to let go. And these were people, these weren't strangers to me. These were people that they were probably related in some way. I probably went to high school with 'em or family, or these are friends, these are neighbors. And so thank God Walmart was patient with us and we worked through that. And then we had growing pains left and right from 2010 to 2014.

(00:48:02):
And then in 2014 there was a little bit, there was this rush. There were a lot of different moonshot brands that were coming into the market and we saw some contraction. We were really again, as a business grows, grow, grow grows, grows, and then all of a sudden you start seeing some dip in sales. We had some I don't wanna call 'em dark days, but definitely some tough, we had some tough times and had to make some difficult decisions along the way. But over the last five years our team and the leadership that that's in place has just played their tales off and really through innovation and through the expansion into the new markets and new stores and growth of the sales team and really just being a well run business, we have been able to take a product that was great and now really turn it into a business.

(00:49:01):
That's great. And credit certainly goes to our team that that's working hard every day to do that. But yeah, we, to say that we're in a much different place than 2010 is an understatement. I think that while everything our distilling, our retail business, our office, everything was in 2,500 square feet, now we occupy hundreds of thousands of square feet of warehouses and production buildings and we have a lot of employees that are working in the business, families that are living out of the business other than my wife and my children. It's hard to be any prouder of Old Smokey. I, I'm really, I'm glad to see what an impact it's been in our community and our state. And you know, talked about the legislative changes early in 2009. I think that I'm not one to toot my own horn, but I will say that our success and what you see as smoky is certainly a testament to the work that they did to create the new laws that opened up the industry in the state of Tennessee.

Drew (00:50:15):
Yeah, you're probably very much encouraging people right now who are going through supply side issues that it's like, you can't overcome this, you just have to wait. Cuz of course we're having issues with that all over the country right now. So has that harmed you at all or is that

Joe (00:50:38):
We, we've seen some difficulties here and there, but I think more in pricing we, we've seen some pricing pressures. It seems like everybody is trying to take a little bit of price and that's a challenge we're facing right now as a country on the hills of coming through the pandemic and the big influx of cash that was put into to economy over the last couple of years. We've got challenges we face. I think from a business perspective we do see supply side issues, whether it's the shipping, but I think the reality is if you're in business, you better have thick skin. You know, talk about those pioneers, those pioneers that came over in the 17 hundreds into Tennessee. I think that it's just the same, you better have thick skin if you're going to get in business. It's hard. I have a running idea or joke, I'm my phone when it rings. I know at least seems like once a day I'm going to get something that somebody might think of is really, really, that's really awful. But in the reality of things, it's like, well if that's as bad as it gets today,

Drew (00:51:50):
It's really good. Yeah,

Joe (00:51:51):
I think, I think you're right. If there's anybody out there that's facing those similar challenges, we're all in the same boat and we, we'll figure it out.

Drew (00:52:03):
So let's talk a little bit about whiskey and your history with whiskey. And also we were, so you guys twice tried to get some samples here for me, which I greatly appreciate. Unfortunately supply side and unfortunately shipping services sometimes aren't a hundred percent reliable. But I will do a tasting on YouTube once they come in.

Joe (00:52:27):
I'm in Greenville pretty up. I'm in Greenville every now and then, so I'll make a point of bringing you some

Drew (00:52:33):
Person <laugh>. All right, I'll hold you to that. You can't get <laugh>. Alright. One of the things that I do have here though was a bottle that I got while I was in Nashville for your 10th anniversary when you did the 153 proof. Yes. And I know I'm saying 153 proof moonshine and there are people going, how do you even taste that mean it's gotta be lighter fluid that it's so powerful to drink. But I laugh because both you and Johnny both said very drinkable that at 153 proof, this is very drinkable. So I'm going to demonstrate <laugh>.

Joe (00:53:15):
Good.

Drew (00:53:16):
That's good. So talk a little bit about your mashbill and are you making corn moonshine or are you making moonshine? That's a blend of different grains.

Joe (00:53:27):
So we have products that are all corn and then we, we've done some sugar wash, some mash bell that include sugar and corn. And as we've explored that we, we've got the corn whiskey the 1 53 that you're trying to air, the blue flame. And then we've got a few formulas that we're working on. I, I'll be excited to tell you about soon that we're hoping to push out. And these are, I think the history of moonshine has been such that in the early part of, let's say the late 18 hundreds in the Smokey Mountains, there was access to corn because corn was being grown in the mountains, but sugar was, that was not a commodity that was easily accessible. And so as ingredients or the availability of ingredients changed and opened up, you saw a move towards products that were sugar-based. And so our products honor a lot of those different pieces that were developed along the way and am, I'm partial to the corn whiskey.

(00:54:40):
I think that it's and maybe it's part of what I consider to be the best representation of who we are as a people and what our whiskey heritage really where that really came from in the mountains. But there, there's a place for all of it. And I think that when we were celebrating the 10 year anniversary, I think to put that product on the shelf at 153 proof, it was an effort to show that you could put something out there that while it certainly is a very high proof product, I think drinkable, it sounds like a pretty generic and vanilla term in some ways, but when you try it, it's not what you would expect. I think that sometimes when people think about drinking 153 proof anything, you're think it's going to set your hair on fire,

Drew (00:55:40):
But Well, and you're not thinking that there's going to be a lot of flavor there. It's more about getting the bang out of the alcohol. But the thing that I notice in drinking, it has very strong corn note on the nose, but once you go in and you put it on the pallet when on the nose also don't take a big waft of it cause it will burn your nose hairs. But when you put it on your pallet, the only thing that really tells me this is high proof is that there is a it's almost like it evaporates towards the end when it's on your pallet, but on the front end you're getting, I get the corn note, yes, I get some of the herbally rye there, but I also get a lemon citrus kind of a flavor out of it. It's like the, there're flavors there. And no, I wasn't screaming when I first put it on my tongue, but I also didn't take a mouth full of it. I got just enough of it to be able to taste it and get an idea of what it's like. And what I love about it is actually on the finish, it's very, very clean. Yeah, you would think something like that is going to leave a very heavy note of something negative on your tongue but doesn't just very clean.

Joe (00:57:09):
Yeah. It's fun to be able to explore products like that may be a challenge just on the face, but you're right, it's a product that it surprises you.

Drew (00:57:25):
Yeah.

Joe (00:57:26):
It's not what you'd think it would

Drew (00:57:27):
Be. Yeah. I think a lot of times these moonshiners think that they're making high proof stuff because it has a really heavy alcohol taste to it. And so they just assume that because it has a heavy alcohol flavor to it that it's gotta be high proof and couldn't be, whereas this doesn't have an alcohol flavor to it really at all. And yet it's 153 proof.

Joe (00:57:53):
Yeah, I think a lot of it's got to do with just how a lot of the distillers were managing their heads and tails and what was coming off that still was not always managed well. And I think that that's one of the pieces of where we are with our products now is with a little bit more sophistication in the process of how we make our whiskey when we talk about moonshine and whether it's the same as what maybe my great-great granddad might have made in the mountains versus what we do today. I think that the reality is it is very much the same, it's just process consistency and being able to manage your product in a way that what the consumer's getting at the end of the day. So that 1 53, I don't know if you had the blue flame while you were in town, but the blue flame

Drew (00:58:50):
Little cup of it. Yeah. Okay.

Joe (00:58:52):
That was, my dad would I remember as a kid, he would always be pouring a little into a spoon and burning whatever <laugh> wanted, and he wanted to know if that the flame was burning blue. And he was certainly not a trained chemist, so I'm not sure that it meant anything scientifically,

Drew (00:59:11):
But <laugh>,

Joe (00:59:12):
In his mind, it was a good test as to what the flavor and quality of that product was. And so to honor that, we rolled out the blue flame moonshine, which is it's in a glass jar and the glass is blue, the liquid is clear, and it's a product that it's sold, I think it's sold at 1 28 and it's a sugar and corn mash that really it's, again, if you think the one product that you just tried is approachable and drinkable that one, you know, knock it down 2020 points or so. It really, it's my favorite of our clear products and it's one that I'm personally most proud of and a lot of it I think is probably just my association with my dad and the story there, but it's a pretty good lineup of clear spirits for sure.

Drew (01:00:15):
Yeah. When you go into any of the old Smokies, when I was doing the tasting, I wanted to taste your blended whiskey because you do have a blended whiskey, but is that something that you basically just held to add flavors to and you offer it, but it's not really something that you focus on too much?

Joe (01:00:36):
Our whiskey offering has evolved over the years and that was something that like you said, with our flavored whiskeys, it was an important part of that process and it's not a focus, the blended whiskey. And so I think that as we've grown up and evolved, I think our product lineup certainly has changed and the blended whiskey as an offering as by itself that's one of those things that I think we've also, we've grown past. It's a place for it and you might still see it, but it, it's we really now are becoming much more focused on our efforts behind the James Om B bourbon. And then also we do make and sell a Tennessee whiskey that that's sold as an old Smoky Tennessee whiskey and the different varieties that you'll see there. But yeah, we started with just clear corn whiskey and then all the flavors evolved and then the whiskeys, the flavored whiskeys and now this is something, I am a one, like I said, I'm not a flavored kind of guy.

(01:01:48):
I like my bourbon meat. I'm not a cocktail drinker. And so now as we've been able to, it's a tough business to jump in if you think you want to get into the bourbon business if you're going to do it and lay down product and you're going to wait four years at least. I think that the investment that's required is so significant that it's tough. It's tough for any craft whiskey to exist or to be rolled out without that whiskey being sourced at some point. And I think that as our business has evolved, we've been able to lay down whiskey and create our own program. But it, it's a challenge. And so it just like going from the blended whiskey to now having the James omb or even I think the bourbon that you described, I, I'd call it a baby bourbon, maybe that was just one of those small barrels that we were experimenting with.

(01:02:51):
Those are all parts of that evolution. And yeah, again, you get back to what people want you, I'm a label reader, I like to know where things came from and I like to see where, who's making it? Was it sourced? Was it was this blended? And there are reasons behind all of that. And there are some incredible products out there that are fully sourced and blended. And so we're been part of that process and proud to be able to put out our own stuff though now. But the blended whiskey, it had its place, but it's shelf spaces is dwindling, getting smaller and small.

Drew (01:03:35):
Yeah. So let's talk about the James o b because as I was reading it on the label it says Tennessee Bourbon Whiskey. And whenever I see the name Tennessee, the first thing that's going to pop into my mind is the Lincoln County process. And it's interesting to note that George Dickel recently came out with a bourbon that does go through the Lincoln County process, kind of their way of saying, Hey look, it is bourbon and we're just putting it through that extra step. Is the James Owen b a bourbon or is it a Tennessee bourbon that goes through the Lincoln County process?

Joe (01:04:16):
It has. Okay. Yeah, it has. And I think that it's funny, my preference I have there are critics of the Lincoln County process and then there are those that celebrate it. And so I am I'm of the mind that there's space for both of those. We do both. I think that in some of the blending that we do you'll see that there are products that have been through the Lincoln County process and some that haven't. But that product has the product that you talked about again in Nashville that Uncle Johnny let you try, that was not charcoal filtered. And so that one, the James Oby, everything that we've used is at least four years old. Most of it's over five years old. And it is a heavy corn product with, at least to date it has been charcoal filtered.

Drew (01:05:18):
Okay. And it's partially your spirit and some sourced spirit.

Joe (01:05:23):
We have sourced whiskey that has been part of that development. And as I said earlier, we've laid down whiskey for a while. So I think that there was a time where it was kind of an ugly term to say that something was sourced, but the reality is if you're going to make a product and if you're going to make it well and consistent and be able to offer it to the market, it it's going to happen. Mean you might be able to tell me some, but I can't tell you any new bourbon brands that have been created over the last 10 years or so that have just popped up with

Drew (01:06:00):
Our, just started without. Yeah. I mean a lot of them, there are some the smaller operations that have held out, but you're right, there's an expense to sitting there for four years waiting for your spirits. And so a lot of them will either start out with vodka and gin and they can sell the vodka and gin. They might make a moonshine. That was something that when I was talking to Johnny, it was really interesting that I said, why didn't you guys do more whiskey? And he said, well, we make the moonshine. We sell the moonshine. We don't have to store the moonshine, we don't have to go through all these extra processes. And if you're selling enough moonshine, then it's not a compelling reason to jump straight in and go through that extra process of having warehouses and dealing with the taxes and all the other stuff that you have to deal with.

Joe (01:06:53):
I would've loved to start it with a whiskey product and I think as a fan, but the reality was I would've gone broke and I couldn't afford to. Yeah, I, we didn't have luxury and I couldn't have afforded to source one barrel <laugh> of aged whiskey in 22. So for us it was wasn't even on our radar, to be honest with you. I think that we made products that were consistent with our heritage in the mountains and that was, fortunately it was unaged products, that was it. And that's where we started. And I think since then we've been able to celebrate the other part of Tennessee's history and in spirits with the aged stuff. But it, it's tough and my hat's off to everybody out in the industry that's doing it and trying to grow brands that require aged product cuz it's a tough hill to climb.

Drew (01:07:58):
Absolutely. So what would you say the availability is on the James OMB product? Is it going to be everywhere old Smoky is at or is it kind of more regional or

Joe (01:08:12):
At this point it's more regional. We are again, another challenge of an aged product is you can't just keep ramping it up. Yeah. So I think that we are facing some challenges there, but at least in the near term, it's certainly going to be more regional or local in its availability.

Drew (01:08:35):
When you think about now the legacy that you're developed and it seems like when we talk about legacy, we're talking about a hundred year legacy or whatever. But I mean really the Tennessee era of growth here in the last 12 to 14 years it's amazing to see all that has gone on. And then if you go to Gatlinburg now, you see a lot of places that are doing moonshine. I went into King's Distillery and Justin King was there at Old Smokey at one point. So I How does it feel for you now seeing where the industry is and the growth at this point overall, even beyond Olds Smokey?

Joe (01:09:21):
Yeah, I'm super proud of it. I think that the market is such that I feel like it, it's easy to be protective and feel like the competition is going to be a real negative for us. And I think, but the reality is, and what I've seen, and I think this is just maybe me evolving and maturing as a person and as a business owner, but to see the industry thrive, to see more jobs created, to see more people be able to build businesses that feed their families, it it's, and to celebrate a part of the culture here in the state, I'm not sure that there can be much better than creating opportunity and success for, not only for businesses, but that leads to revenue and jobs. So I think the impact has been terrific and I'm excited to see other distilleries do well with their products.

(01:10:25):
And whether that's in Gatlinburg or severe county where we're from or many, many other places across the state, there's some terrific things that are happening in the spirits industry in the state of Tennessee. And I'm proud that we are, we're part of that and certainly that we were first to the game under this under new laws that opened that up 12 years ago. And what a great thing for the state of Tennessee to see the evolution and the growth in an industry that really, like you say, it was limited to three distilleries prior to 2010 and now we're one of many. It's great to see it in the story just even with Justin. Justin was one of our first team members at All Smokey. And before that he was a good family friend and a cousin. I joke if you're from one of the, let's call it the five or 10 families that were in severe county in the early late 18 hundreds, early 19 hundreds related.

Drew (01:11:41):
And

Joe (01:11:43):
My kids get a kick out of how many cousins I have and how many cousins they have now to, but I love that. I love Justin's done well and he's really making a good impact in the industry. And we're seeing that we've got people that have worked at Old Smokey that are now employed in a lot of places across the state and doing well within the industry. Yeah.

Drew (01:12:07):
Well Joe, I really appreciate you taking the time I've been ever since I talked to Johnny, I've been like, I would love to get Joe on the show to give us those early days. And cuz we now think of Old Smokey, we see it on the shelves everywhere and you just take for granted that it's there and you don't really think about all the struggles that it took to get through that. And that really, even though it seems like it's been there for a long time, this is still a very young industry in Tennessee. So it's fun to hear the stories and I really appreciate you sharing them.

Joe (01:12:43):
No, it, it's my great pleasure and proud that our brand now is a part of this great podcast. So thank you.

Drew (01:12:52):
Thanks Joe. And if you wanna learn more about Old Smoky than just head to old smokey.com and for show notes, transcripts and links to whiskey, Lord Social Media, head to whiskey lord.com. And if you enjoyed today's episode and you wanna learn more about this revival at Tennessee Whiskey, check out episode 32 featuring Tim Pearson of Chattanooga Whiskey. And if you can't get enough whiskey history, then make sure to join us on Facebook at the official whiskey lore community. Go behind the scenes, take part in community events, and make some new Whiskey friends. That's the official whiskey lore community on Facebook. I'm your host, drew Hamish, and until next time, cheers. And Slane a whiskey lords of production of Travel fuel's Life. L L C.